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RE: Muslim world is the poorest, most illiterate, most backward

Please help make the Manifesto better, or accept it, and propagate it!


Hi Kartik,

> This guy Ashish is as hypocritical as they come. Note this: "past
> historical
> injustices are not a justification for further injustices", and then
> he goes
> on to took about the Jews being persecuted for centuries, and that's
> why
> they
> have a right to Palestine.

I think you should read my post more carefully. I did not say that
Israel has right to Palestine at all. In fact, in more that one posts I
recognized Palestinian people's moral right to their territory. This is
undisputable even by Israel itself.

The problem is something very different. In Palestine there is no
responsible authority. What happens if Israel gives land to PLO in
return for peace and Yasser Arafat cannot rein in more terrorist types
in his territory. In last so many years he has not shown any proof that
he can do that. He was not elected in a free and fair elections and
neither has any plans to do so in the future. They do not have
separation of powers like Israel has among Executive, Judiciary and
Parliament. This makes its difficult to have civil and just society.
And that gives rise to so much violence amongst Palestinian people. 

Does anybody on this forum seriously believe that violence will cease
if Israel gives the land back to Palestinians? Haven't we not learnt
our lessons in dealing with theocracies of Pakistan and dictatorships
of Communist China? Are they capable of making peace with others? 

It is not question of whether Palestinian people are peace loving or
not! It is a question of whether they have a system to express and
resolve conflicting opinions among themselves and project a responsbile
authority outside. Take our case with Pakistan. Vajpayee was talking
peace with Nawaz Sharief and his Commander in chief was planning on
attacking Kargil. And Nawaz Sharief claims that he was not aware of it.
In India if this happens this kind of claim will be laughed to death.
Same thing goes with Communist China. We were chanting Hindi Chini Bhai
Bhai and guess what we get in return for brotherly love? We accepted UN
resolution to conduct Plebiscite in Kashmir on condition that Pakistan
frees PoK. Did Pakistan ever tried implementing the pre-condition?

You have to understand that theocracies and dictatorships fall in the
same category. More you negotiate and bend before them more arrogant
and dictatorial they become. With no free press and free election it is
difficult to deal with them no matter how oppressed they sound.

Israel accepted 1947 UN resolution for the parition of Palestinian
terrority. Palestinian did not. Instead Arab countries attacked Israel
two times in the past and lost heavily. Iraq was even planning
acquiring nuclear weapons the plan for which was foiled by preemptive
strike from Israel.

I think in our quest for seeking justice for oppressed people and our
desire to stand up against powerful US and Israel we are not
recognizing the dangers of dictatorship. In our ambiguity in support US
and Israel we are unknowingly playing in the hands of these horrible
people. I think we should recognize what wrong things US, Israel and
even India did. We should critisize their policies. Force them to make
peace and give justice. Just like what we did with South Africa and
even in India. However, our (democracy's) crimes are not same as the
suicide attacks of Hamas or Pakistan' behavior or behavior of China,
Russia or North Korea or behavior of theocracies of Arab world. And it
does not matter whether dictators are right. They are wrong because
their method is wrong. And they are very adept at justifying their
behavior by focussing continuously on the oppression of thier people at
the hands of Westerners. However, if they are so bothered about that
why are they not creating internal freedom. This should be simple
enough for so-called intellectuals to understand.

Karl Marx started this non-sense when he first stated that because of
past history of Capitalism from the West in oppressing poor people
workers of all countries should unite. However, after that what? He
never told anybody how to run a society which is based on totally
opposite principles of classical West. How do we run a society that is
not based on Democracy, Property Rights, and free press? He never
answered that question. The working of such a proleteriat society were
left the whims and fancies of dictators like Stalin, Lenins and Maos.

We should learn our lessons. Even though classical western liberal
concepts like democracy, free press and capitalism might have been
abused by powerful amongst them, they still do not have any
alternatives. In our desire to get justice for oppressed and poor
people we should not end up justfying or promoting theocracies and
communist dicatorships. That's what India did when Nehru argued for
China's inclusion in Security Council and that's what Nehru did by
granting Soviet Union legitimacy by associating a rich and secular
democracy with an horrible dictatorships. That's what Arundhati Roy is
doing when she says that there is no difference between George Bush and
Osama Bin Laden or that "World should not have to choose between US and
Taliban". This is utter non-sense.

Ashish K Hanwadikar

Israel will and should hold the land as an insurance against PLO.
Because it gives Israel an bargaining edge which India lacks against
dealing with Pakistan. I don't care how unfair that is if it forces PLO
and Arabs to negotiating table. And frankly speaking I don't believe
that PLO and Arab World is planning to stop after getting their land.
They will never stop at that. The peace with outside world can be
suicidal for theocracies and dictatorship. They need to deflect the
internal anger of thier people for lack of freedom onto something
external. That's what they do best. 

It is not that in democratic society like US, India and Israel the same
thing won't happen. But because people and Press have access to
information and have power to vote, and because there is separation of
power between different branches of Govt. (You need legislature's
approval to go on with War and for its financing) that makes
democracies more sustainable and more humane. 

Why dont' well meaning intellectuals ask PLO to form democracy in
existing Palestinian areas? Why can' they hold a free and fair
elections? And then once their internal system is working and they
remove elimination of Israel as their official policy from their
charter we can all put pressure on Israel to return their land and
bring back the refugees. I am sure with all democracies including US
and India will have no trouble in getting Israel to do that.

I hope you get my point.


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