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Re: Here is food for thought and reflection on the manifes
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[Topics under debate]: GOOD GOVERNANCE
___Help make this manifesto better, or accept it, and propagate it!___
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I am sorry to say (or even imply) anything negative about a good patriot like
Dr. Roy. He has after all defended Indian Government's policies successfully and
conveniently justified its oppression by stating that no other place is better. And
why should we be any better than any other? We must all be as obedient and be
patriotic to an oppressive government and follow the example of the good Dr. We may
be annoyed by people like Gandhiji, etc. who will emphasize upon individualism and
encourage the expression of your furstrations through civil disobedience but we can
always suppress such characters in India if we have many who think like Dr. Roy.
I hereby pledge allegience to a Government that would try to brainwash the
people that current conflict in Kargil has nothing to do with Pakistan - so much for
all those who have died in the conflict!! I am a humble and obedient servant of
GoI. The people of India have benefited from this institution in the past and they
will continue to prosper from it in the future. My friends please join me in my
prayers.
Sincerely,
Vamsi M.
prabhu.guptara@ubs.com wrote:
> Dear Mr Vamsi
>
> I appreciate many if not most of your contributions to IPI and I have
> refrained from saying much over the last several days partly because I
> was travelling and then don't have access to email, and partly because
> I could not see a way, in my limited time available, to see a way of
> cooling the temperature.
>
> May I gently ask: Don't you think that the temperature is alreay hot?
> Why give such an unhelpful emotional reaction? If you don't like the
> contact of Prof Roy's comments, fine; but don't just express your
> displeasure: analyse Prof Roy's statements and come up with better
> material....
>
> Allow me to point out that it is precisely because we realise the poor
> state that India is in that we want to do something about it. We ARE
> inferior and we don't want to be. If we were already No. 1 or
> anywhere close to that, then IPI would not be needed.
>
> An "inferiority complex", correctly speaking, is where a person feels
> inferior even though the person has no objective reason to feel so.
>
> We have every objective reason to feel inferior, because we are
> inferior. Not because we NEED to be inferior, but because we have elected to
> power people who either were thieves to begin with, or became thieves soon
> after, who have roobed the nation so much that we have BECOME poor (my analysis,
> you see, is a little different from the one that focuses exclusively on the
> government vs. free market). Meanwhile, some people continue to focus attention
> on what the British did and, now, on what the Americans might do - which serves
> as a convenient way of shifting attention away from the robbery which took place
> and continues to take place.
>
> Till we start realising that we ARE inferior, AND determine to do something
> about it beyond belly-aching privately (in other words, till we decide to
> participate in something such as IPI, as you and I and others have done, and we
> hope many others will do), nothing much will happen to improve things in India.
>
> Please let us all consider carefully what we post, and try to post ONLY those
> things which will be helpful and constructive and take us forward in terms of
> policy and specifics. Do, please, let us stop attacking individuals (I hope
> that you do not feel I am attacking you...).
>
> Meanwhile, a donation from me will be sent as soon as I can be informed of the
> best way to send money electronically.
>
> Professor Prabhu Guptara
> Director, Organisational and Executive Development
> Wolfsberg Executive Development Centre
> CH-8272 Ermatingen
> Switzerland
> tel: + 41.71.663.5605
> fax: + 41.71.663.5594
> email: prabhu.guptara@ubs.com
>
> ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
> Subject: Re: Here is food for thought and reflection on the manifes
> Author: vamsi (vamsi@siliconcorp.com) at unix,mime
> Date: 02.06.1999 05:03
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> [Topics under debate]: GOOD GOVERNANCE
> ___Help make this manifesto better, or accept it, and propagate it!___
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Who gives a rat's (beep, you what) how other countries fare with India.
> Why do we have such an inferiority complex where we need to compare to other
> countries. I didn't expect such mundane reply from an IIT
> professor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Sincerely,
> Vamsi M.
>
> "Dr. Subroto Roy" wrote:
>
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > [Topics under debate]: GOOD GOVERNANCE
> > ___Help make this manifesto better, or accept it, and propagate it!___
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The Manifesto PART I
> > > GOOD GOVERNANCE
> > >Today, India neither has good governance nor good economic policy.
> >
> > --- why is this statement here? what is its exact purpose? can it not
> > be
> > said of any country at any time? e.g. the USA, Switzerland, Japan,
> > Nigeria,
> > South Africa etc etc. I.e. my point is that it is a pointless
> > rhetorical
> > statement which could be made about all countries at all times.
> >
> > We >need
> > >to provide good governance first, which will be made possible by
> > >implementing good economic policies simultaneously.
> > >
> > 1. Individual Autonomy and Participative Democracy
> > >We believe that a radical democratization of government in India is the
> >
> > >need
> > >of the hour.
> >
> > --- why the need of the hour? is it so urgent? why not the need of
> > e.g.
> > the decade?
> >
> > The challenge before us, the citizens, is the creation of a
> > >system of governance where the interests of all, rich and poor, the
> > >educated >as well as the illiterate, are protected, and everyone gets a
> >
> > platform>to
> > >raise his/her concerns.
> >
> > -- this is platitudinous, i.e. nobody will disagree
> >
> > Our government needs to protect the freedom and
> > >autonomy of individuals and, by implication, that of all organizations
> > >of
> > >the people.
> >
> > A government that limits itself to fulfilling the basic >mandate
> > >that it is entrusted to, by the ordinary citizens, the masters of our
> > >democracy. The mandate that is limited to protecting individual
> > freedom,
> > >liberty, right to choice of enterprise, opportunity to earn a dignified
> >
> > >living, and order in the society to insure peaceful coexistence of all,
> >
> > >without regard to individual differences.
> > >
> > --- this is good above, draws upon the French and American revolutionary
> >
> > ideals
> >
> > In order to achieve the above mentioned objective,
> > >
> > a) Individuals willing
> > -- why not wishing/wanting to be?
> >
> > to become politicians and represent the people in
> > >the
> > >government, must state clearly their stand on specific critical policy
> > >issues that are important for the citizen's day-to-day life. This
> > >specific
> > >information about the views of the candidates, along with a, published,
> >
> > >detailed background information of the candidate's recent past, must be
> >
> > >used
> > >by the citizens to elect their best representative for the government.
> >
> > >b) All government control of the media must be released back to the
> > >people.
> >
> > -- this is a touch of the concrete .. now debate is on going in India
> > about
> > Prashar Bharati... the IPI statement seems to be unaware that Indian
> > newspapers are as free as anywhere else, that there are numerous foreign
> > and
> > domestic alternative newschannels today, and have been for five years
> > or
> > so... .
> >
> > >c) Anything more then absolutely essential personal information on
> > >private >citizens
> >
> > -- what does this mean, if anything?
> >
> > cannot be kept by the government, and the citizen would be
> > >entitled
> > >to receive a copy of any information about him/her, that the government
> >
> > >wants to keep.
> >
> > -- there is a long and ongoing debate in India on a Freedom of
> > Information
> > Act... why not refer to it concretely... the leading light is CR Irani.
> > editor of the Statesman...
> > >
> > >d) Unless clearly defined and approved otherwise, every public office,
> > >which
> > >is essentially, by definition, created to serve the public, would have
> > >to
> > >have local control via a local board of representative(s),
> > >selected/elected
> > >from among the community of people such an organization claims to
> > serve.
> >
> > --- what does this mean in practice in India, if anything?
> >
> > >e) Local bodies and groups which involve debate on public policy, to be
> >
> > >encouraged.
> >
> > -- to be encouraged by whom? by the Union Government? why? how?
> > using
> > public funds?
> > >
> >
> > >2. National Reconciliation
> >
> > >The creation of a sense of fraternity amongst peoples of India is a
> > task
> > >long overdue.
> >
> > --- in what sense? do we have Bengal at war with Bihar, Telegus at war
> >
> > with Kannadigas? Maharathis at war with Gujaratis? of course not...
> > we
> > have, in a country of subcontinental size, local civil conflicts and
> > disturbances and insurgencies... the statement makes it sound as if
> > what is
> > needed is a Saviour of India...
> >
> > The task of sitting down together and discussing things
> > >out
> > >has to be carried out very seriously. this can be done by
> >
> > >a) Fostering civic institutions and think tanks in all fields, which
> > >will
> > >interact with the people as well as with counterparts in other
> > >countries.
> >
> > --- is this to be done with public money? why? seems to be a recipe
> > for
> > over-intellectualismand rent-seeking...
> >
> > >b) Promoting the spirit of volunteerism and thus enhancing social
> > >capital.
> >
> > >3. Electoral Reform
> > >A legislation needs to be enacted that strictly requires individuals to
> >
> > >show
> > >proof of no criminal record
> >
> > -- what does this mean, if anything? no jail-time? no charge-sheets?
> > no
> > FIRs? a lot of people have spent time a little time in jail... as I
> > recall
> > for example Smt. Sheila Dixit was arrested by the BJP Govt in UP for a
> > while
> > in 1990... is that a criminal record?
> >
> > involving conviction of the candidate,
> >
> > -- this is even worse now... nobody gets convicted in India... certainly
> > not
> > political criminals... so by this criterion, no progress would have been
> >
> > made...
> >
> > as a
> > >precondition for qualification to run for any elected public office.
> >
> > >Election Commission also needs a legislation requiring a mandatory
> > >accounts
> > >audit of every individual political campaign committee accounts.
> >
> > -- what is the present position? What would Shri Gill say about this?
> >
> > Such
> > >accounts must document every small
> >
> > -- I gave Rs 20 to a volunteer from the extreme leftist SUCI the other
> > day... because they re-introduced English into CPM run Bengal's schools;
> > are
> > you saying you want them to account for it?
> >
> > as well as large donation from
> > >citizens
> > >as well as organizations.
> >
> > Such political donation records containing
> > >information about donors as well as the amounts donated, should
> > >automatically become a public property accessible to all.
> > >
> > >Election Commission must impose a strict upper ceiling on the amount of
> >
> > >money a single individual or organizational donor can donate to a
> > >political
> > >campaign.
> >
> > --- what is the present practice of the Election Commission? does
> > anyone
> > know?
> > Such limit should be revised every ten years in order to
> > >adjust
> > >the limit with inflation.
> > >
> > >Elected representatives of the people in the government need to be
> > >rewarded
> > >with good remuneration. Public service should be made attractive enough
> >
> > >to
> > >retain talented and people of honor in its fold. However, the
> > >compensation
> > >needs to be strictly defined without any loopholes for the politicians
> > >to
> > >exploit for their benefits. Transparency needs to be the norm here
> > >rather
> > >then exception.
> > >
> > >Summary information totaling Income from all sources, including gifts
> > >etc.,
> > >and the taxes paid by the people holding elected public offices, should
> >
> > >become public property accessible to all. This step can help reduce the
> >
> > >amount of corruption in politics.
> > >
> > >
> > Bureaucrats would be given incentives to document corruption by
> > elected
> > >representatives (including taped evidence).
> >
> > --- what does this mean if anything? elected representatives are the
> > masters of bureaucrats I am afraid in a democratic system, like it or
> > not...
> >
> > They would have the power to
> > >present such evidence to the Lok Pal who, in turn, would have the
> > power
> > >to
> > >protect the bureaucrat as well as to reward such effort if found to be
> > >true.
> >
> > -- why has the Lok Pal suddenly appeared beside rthe Election
> > Commissioner?
> > these are two distinct jobs...>
> > >
> > >
> > >Law regarding State & National Political Parties :
> > >
> > >Nominations of the official candidates of individual political parties
> > >for
> > >contesting elections, should be democratically done by conducting
> > >preliminary rounds of elections, where only the party members residing
> > >in
> > >the constituency under consideration would be eligible to vote. This
> > >should
> > >be done no sooner then four months and no later then six weeks before
> > >actual
> > >elections to the constituency are due.
> > >
> >
> > -- I have already stated in a previous message that this is based ona
> > muddle:There are in India and
> > elsewhere political formations which would normally be called
> > dictatorial
> > and/or totalitarian. The basis of the dictatorship may be ideology or
> > religion or merely personality cult. Such a party might subjectively
> > consider itself democratic (while considering one another
> > anti-democratic),
> > and even have some semblance of intra party voting. Political
> > philosophy
> > has known and defined the "paradox of democracy" for a long time, by
> > which
> > democratic institutions are used to bring an anti-democratic party into
> > power. The task of public policy would be not to chatter on about
> > intra-party democracy but rather to see that all political parties,
> > whether
> > democratic or not, play by democratic rules against one another, and
> > further
> > that the paradox of democracy be recognised and countered to the extent
> > possible.
> >
> > >4. Parliamentary Reform
> > >
> > >Voting records of each and every MP/MLA on each and every Bill would be
> >
> > >publicly available
> >
> > -- they already are
> >
> > on the internet,
> >
> > -- not necessary if they are already available
> >
> > so that citizens could determine how
> > >well their interests were represented by the said representative.
> >
> > >5. Defence
> > >Constant preparedness is needed to keep our defense forces in the state
> >
> > >of
> > >readiness to defend our borders. Availability of sufficient funding has
> >
> > >to
> > >be ensured for investment in personnel, modern weaponry, and suitable
> > >technology in accordance with current military needs.
> >
> > --- this is platitudinous... like saying all Indians would like India to
> > win
> > at cricket.
> >
> > >6. Foreign Policy
> > >
> > >We should try to find common interests with nations that have similar
> > >democratic norms of government.
> >
> > -- does this mean we may not ally with e.g. Russia and China regarding
> > Kosovo?
> > Remember Lord Palmerston: nations do not have permanent friends, but
> > permanent interests...
> >
> > This would include extraditing criminals
> > >from other nations who are sought by their police, shutting down
> > >operations
> > >of foreign terrorists on Indian soil, signing extradition treaties with
> >
> > >more
> > >nations.
> >
> > -- extradition is the main plank of foreign policy?
> > >
> > >We advocate the goal of global disarmament by all nations and the
> > >banning of
> > >all weapons of mass destruction. The sole purpose of creating a nuclear
> >
> > >weapon must be to help the world understand the futility of trying to
> > >hold
> > >on to existing power structures in perpetuity, and to insist that
> > >everyone
> > >in the world will be better off with complete disarmament. India would
> > >never
> > >be the first to use nuclear weapons in the event of a conflict with
> > >another
> > >country.
> > >
> >
> > -- this is all standard policy now...
> >
> > >With over 20% of the world's population, India deserves a place in the
> > >permanent membership of the UN Security Council. Indian foreign policy
> > >must
> > >mature with the aim of leading the international community in the 21st
> > >century. India must work with friends and supporters in the United
> > >Nation to
> > >make it happen. Indian foreign policy needs to focus on protecting
> > >Indian
> > >interests abroad, as well as better promoting/protecting Indian
> > business
> > >and
> > >trade interests.
> > >
> >
> > --- I can go on and on... my point would be to show that this, while a
> > worthwhile endeavour, is far from being a mature, well-thought out
> > document
> > at professional standards.
> >
> > Subroto Roy
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > This is the National Debate on System Reform. debate@indiapolicy.org
> > Rules, Procedures, Archives: http://www.indiapolicy.org/debate/
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> --
> Sincerely,
> Vamsi M.
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This is the National Debate on System Reform. debate@indiapolicy.org
> Rules, Procedures, Archives: http://www.indiapolicy.org/debate/
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Sincerely,
Vamsi M.
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This is the National Debate on System Reform. debate@indiapolicy.org
Rules, Procedures, Archives: http://www.indiapolicy.org/debate/
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