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Re: Mr. Ashish should respect....



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IPI_Marker

Hi Yogesh, 
      Look for my responses below:
--- Yogesh Upadhyay <u_yogesh@rediffmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Ashish,
> I dont think anybody here is supporting communism as you are 
> alluding to time and again. And although there is implicit 
> agreement over superiority of democratic values(implicit because 
> there is no need to reiterate it), I dont see why non-interference 
> with other forms of governances should be construed as defection 
>  from the democratic principles. 

I was talking about non-interference with other forms of Govt. Atleast
don't provide moral legitimacy to these forms of Govt. (actually
repressions). Calling Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai is not a non-interference
but blind faith that dictators will not attack us if do nothing to
them. Same thing goes for Russia. Russia did not attack us because we
followed their principles after taking assistance from them. Had we
taken a different route, of capitalism, are you sure Russia would have
left us alone? Say like in Afghanistan there were some fring lunatic
groups in India trying to bring communist revolution (we already have
so many like People's liberation Front and so on .. ) wouldn't USSR
supported them. What about CPM? They were happy that China attacked us.
They actually were welcoming them! You are really understanding
Communists.

> And I dont see any reason for 
> poking our nose into other forms of rules too. If democratic India 
> could maintain co-ordial relations with communist Russia for 
> years, there was something intrinsically wrong with America 
> (paranoia, maybe???). If you dig for the reasons, then you end up 
> at American Oil Obsession in the Middle East. Communism is just a 
> pretext. Historically, the whole of CIA effort has been directed 
> in this pursuit.
> 

I will agree that US has lots of interests in Middle East Oil. But then
I don't get it. If the Oil is what US want why support Israel? Why not
dump them like others including Europeans have done? Let them get
slaughtered at the hands of Arabs and Russians and get cheap Middle
East Oil by kissing Sheikhs and Saudis. Wouldn't that be the logical US
policy if what you said were true of US? Or do you think that Israeli
have secret Oil wells?

> As regards you comments on US-Israel ties, you may be aware that 
> there is a large chunk of influential Jew community in American 
> political circles. That explains America's "Jewish love".
> 

Come on! Jews like so many other communities occupy important position
in US. However, saying that Jews are disproprotionately influential in
shaping US foriegn policy inspite of your opinion that all US wants is
cheap Middle East Oil is illogical at best.

> I have something more to add, which I felt better to embed in your 
> response as capitalized fonts for reasons of maintaining flow of 
> ideas.
> 


> THE AMERICAN RHETORIC OF ANTI-COMMUNISM ALL OVER THE WORLD IS 
> MERELY THAT; FACADE FOR PUBLIC. IN IT'S OPERATION ENDURING FREEDOM 
> (OR OPERATON INFINITE JUSTICE, WHATEVER) IN AFGHANISTAN, IT HAD 
> PROCLAIMED PROUDLY BEFORE THE WAR THAT IT WOULD EVACUATE 
> AFGHANISTAN AS SOON AS THE OPERATION IS OVER. NOW THAT THE 
> OPERATION IS OVER, AMERICA HAS EXPRESSED ITS LONG TERM INTEREST IN 
> THE REGION. AND WHAT PRECISELY IS THAT INTEREST? HELPING PAKISTAN 
> ESTABLISH DEMOCRACY, REVERSE THE FUNDAMENTALISM IT FUNDED SOME 
> YEARS BACK TO OUST RUSSIA? NO!!! AT LAST AMERICA HAS GOT THE 
> "PIVOT" IN THE REGION, I WAS TALKING ABOUT IN MY EARLIER POST. 
> IT'S THERE TO STAY, PURSUE ITS "INTEREST" AS LONG AS IT WISHES TO, 
> AT ANY COST. THAT IS NOT RESPECTABLE OF COUNTRY YOU SO MUCH BOAST 
> OF VALUING HUMAN RIGHTS AND DEMOCRACY.

Wait a second here! I have no doubt that US has its interests to pursue
in Afghanistan. But as far as I can remember it was Afghanistan's prime
Minister that was begging for US to stay and get more involved. Trust
me if American leave Afghanistan today, it will degenerate into the
same chaos that gave rise to Taliban. However, if you look at US
behavior with Germany and Japan after World War II, both the countries
economically prospered. There is nothing to suggest that US exploited
any of these countries or took advantage of them.


>I DONT THINK ACCESS TO INFORMATION CREATES MOTIVATION TO ACCESS 
>THE INFORMATION. AND THE FACT IS THAT, ALL SAID AND DONE ABOUT THE 
>INFRASTRUCTURE FOR INFORMATION, THERE ARE MORE NUMBER OF INDIANS 
>THAN AMERICANS WHO ARE INQUISITIVE ABOUT THINGS AROUND. I WOULD 
>LIKE TO KNOW OF ONE SUCH AMERCIAN FORUM AS IPI.

As I said before there are enough organization in US which are
interested in Policy issues. Look at http://www.cato.org/,
www.ncpa.org, http://www.reason.com/, http://www.hoover.org/, then also
look at www.aclu.org, various student organization in all the
Universities etc. There are discussion forums are over US. Don't kid
yourself that such a small forum (compared to the population of India)
shows that we are more inquisitive than Americans. Tell me the last
time you influenced any policy in India? Are you able to call your MP
or MLA and have him respond withing reasonable time? Do our
representative engage in any debate during election? Do we have
elections of local Sherrifs, District Attorneys? Do we elect local
judges? Tell me in which parties mailing list (postal or email) do you
participate? Do we vote in primaries? (In US each party conducts its
own election for its candidates. The people who have registered with
Election Commision as members of a particular party vote a candidate.
Only the candidate which wins the primary is endorsed by the party as
the official candidate for either Presidential, Governor's or Congress
office etc.).

Level of political participation in US is very very large compared to
India. Don't be under any illusion because so less people vote in
Federal elections. Federal Govt. has very little role to play in
everyday life because local and state Govt. are more important.


> FROM WHAT I KNOW 
>AN TYPICAL AMERICAN IS A 9-5, TWO KID AND A MUTLIPLE-WIFE/ HUSBAND 
>PLUS EXTRA AFFAIR PERSON, GENERALLY OBLIVIOUS OF AFFAIRS AROUND. 
>NO WONDER ALL MOST OF THEM (AND THERE ARE LOT OF THEM) KNEW ABOUT 
>KASHMIR IS THAT IT IS PRONOUNCED AS "CASHMEER" AND THAT THERE IS 
>SOMETHING GOING ON THERE THAT CNN WASTES ITS TIME OVER, WHILE WE 
>HERE EVEN TALKING ABOUT AMERICA IN NICARAGUA.

Do you believe in steretypes? The fact that you believe in these
Steretypical american inspite of such a wealth of information available
about US of A on Internet, TVs and newspapers and other places shows
how ignorant you are. No wonder that Americans with such a little
information AVAILABLE about India cannot spell "Kashmir".  It is
responsibility of Indians and Indian Govt. to propogate its position.
When question of US involvement comes into any region there is fierce
debate in America which I never found in India. This is not to deny
that Americans, and particularly the younger kids, are getting
disinterested in politics and world affairs. There is a serious concern
about it. But you  have to remember that it was American's ability to
see for what Communism is that helped them to avoid the stupidity that
Europeans and Indians so gladly embraced. The fact remains that inspite
of World Wide faith in Communism at its peak US was the only country
standing bearing the tourch of Capitalism. Nobody can dispute that. 

Regards,
Ashish

> On Fri, 01 Mar 2002 Ashish Hanwadikar wrote :
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Please help make the Manifesto better, or accept it, and 
> >propagate it!
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >IPI_Marker
> >
> >Hi Ritu,
> > > Actually, it was the same thing then as it is now - if you are 
> >not
> > > with us,
> > > you are against us. Non alignment was probably one of the 
> >few
> > > sensible ideas
> > > of Nehru.
> >
> >Come on! Don't mistake pronouncement by angry George Bush the 
> >same the
> >US foriegn policy.
> >
> >NAM was a sensible idea? You must be kidding. I agree that India 
> >was
> >not in the position of taking sides between US and Russia even if 
> >it
> >wanted to. However, equating Russia (and Communism) and US is 
> >just
> >plain stupid. You don't have support US in any war. But atleast 
> >don't
> >provide moral legitimacy to Russian, Chinese (by requesting that 
> >China
> >be given Security Council Seat in UN to solve Korean crisis), 
> >North
> >Koreans and Egypt (Remember Nasser?).
> >
> >Don't kid yourself into believing that US was needing or asking 
> >for
> >India help in Vietnam or other places. But recognizing that 
> >Communist
> >dicatorship and democratic Capitalism are totally different and
> >recognizing that democracy and Capitalism are superior to 
> >theocracy,
> >dictatorships and Communism is the least India could have done.
> >
> NO DENYING TO THAT BUT THERE IS NO HARM IN RECOGNIZING THE 
> EXISTENCE OF OTHER FORMS.
> >
> > > Surely you are not naive enough to believe that it was US's 
> >support
> > > for the
> > > Israeli cause and USSR's opposition of the same that caused 
> >the
> > > trouble
> > > between the two superpowers?
> >
> >It was a fundamental difference of ideology that caused the 
> >problem in
> >US and Russia. There is no reason why US should support Israel 
> >other
> >than the fact that they are a democracy. Just think about it. 
> >What does
> >the US gains by support Israel against Russia and Arab states? 
> >Why? Why
> >put billions of dollars in aid to Israel? Why put American lives 
> >in
> >danger by giving Russians and Arabs a reason to hate Americans? 
> >It was
> >equally possible that Russian weapons would have helped Arabs to 
> >defeat
> >Israel in 1967 war. Why go to such a extend to support Israel? US 
> >love
> >for Jews? Come on!
> 
> 
> I THINK I PROVIDED MY REASONING TO THAT ALREADY.
> >
> >I do not support US intervention all over the World. But if it 
> >comes to
> >battle between democracy and dictatorship, and between capitalism 
> >and
> >communism I will support US and Israel anytime, anywhere. And US 
> >and
> >Israel dont' even have to be right about such thing as land. I 
> >will
> >still support them unconditionally. Because I believe that if 
> >Russian
> >and Arabs would have won there was no hope for anybody in the 
> >World.
> 
> THE AMERICAN RHETORIC OF ANTI-COMMUNISM ALL OVER THE WORLD IS 
> MERELY THAT; FACADE FOR PUBLIC. IN IT'S OPERATION ENDURING FREEDOM 
> (OR OPERATON INFINITE JUSTICE, WHATEVER) IN AFGHANISTAN, IT HAD 
> PROCLAIMED PROUDLY BEFORE THE WAR THAT IT WOULD EVACUATE 
> AFGHANISTAN AS SOON AS THE OPERATION IS OVER. NOW THAT THE 
> OPERATION IS OVER, AMERICA HAS EXPRESSED ITS LONG TERM INTEREST IN 
> THE REGION. AND WHAT PRECISELY IS THAT INTEREST? HELPING PAKISTAN 
> ESTABLISH DEMOCRACY, REVERSE THE FUNDAMENTALISM IT FUNDED SOME 
> YEARS BACK TO OUST RUSSIA? NO!!! AT LAST AMERICA HAS GOT THE 
> "PIVOT" IN THE REGION, I WAS TALKING ABOUT IN MY EARLIER POST. 
> IT'S THERE TO STAY, PURSUE ITS "INTEREST" AS LONG AS IT WISHES TO, 
> AT ANY COST. THAT IS NOT RESPECTABLE OF COUNTRY YOU SO MUCH BOAST 
> OF VALUING HUMAN RIGHTS AND DEMOCRACY.
> 
> > > Non-alignment was not neutrality. It was a doctrine that 
> >stated that
> > > our
> > > position on international issues would be decided by what 
> >our
> > > morality and
> > > self-interest dictates and *not* by the decree of either of 
> >the
> > > super-powers.
> > >
> >
> >What morality? Supporting Chinese seat in Security Council? Or 
> >keeping
> >quiet about Russia's invasion in Afghanistan? When a Communist 
> >Govt.
> >like Russia gives economic assistance and helps build weapons 
> >for
> >India, do you think India was in position to say something 
> >against
> >Russians. NAM was just an escapist ploy to do way with making a 
> >moral
> >judgement against Communism and dictatorships. And remember had 
> >we
> >instead gone for private investment from US by opening up our 
> >markets
> >criticizing US policies in Vietnam by Indian Govt. would not 
> >have
> >affected US private investments in India. You see, democracy 
> >and
> >capitalism gives an degree of independence that Communism and
> >dictatorship can never give one.
> >
> > > Oh puhleeze! As if all countries don't do that at one point or 
> >the
> > > other.
> > > Whatever the practical aspects of NAM were, don't try to make 
> >it out
> > > as a
> > > morally deficit policy.
> > >
> >
> >There is no doubt that all countries do it at one point of time 
> >or
> >other. But can't you see any difference between killings of 
> >innocents
> >in Vietnam by US and what Communists did in Vietnam, Kosovo,
> >Afghanistan, in their own countries, Cuba etc.? Do you think 
> >Russians
> >were aware of what thier dictators were doing in Afghanistan? Or 
> >even
> >if they were knowing about it they could do anything about it? 
> >Haven't
> >you seen Vietnam war protests in US? Don't you see any 
> >difference
> >between India's attack on Bangladesh to liberate it from Pakistan 
> >and
> >Pakistan's attack on Kashmir? And if you can see the difference 
> >between
> >India and Pakistan why can't you see the difference between 
> >Israel and
> >PLO?
> >
> >On hand we have democracies with their press press, separation 
> >of
> >powers and elected representatives (which can be impeached) and 
> >other
> >hand we have dictators which if they go out of hand can cause a 
> >huge
> >catastrophe (Remember Hitler). It is sad that intellectuals can
> >recognize the horrors of dictators like Hitler, Mussolini, 
> >Lenins,



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