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Re: Mr. Ashish should respect....



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IPI_Marker

Hi Ashish,
I dont think anybody here is supporting communism as you are 
alluding to time and again. And although there is implicit 
agreement over superiority of democratic values(implicit because 
there is no need to reiterate it), I dont see why non-interference 
with other forms of governances should be construed as defection 
 from the democratic principles. And I dont see any reason for 
poking our nose into other forms of rules too. If democratic India 
could maintain co-ordial relations with communist Russia for 
years, there was something intrinsically wrong with America 
(paranoia, maybe???). If you dig for the reasons, then you end up 
at American Oil Obsession in the Middle East. Communism is just a 
pretext. Historically, the whole of CIA effort has been directed 
in this pursuit.

As regards you comments on US-Israel ties, you may be aware that 
there is a large chunk of influential Jew community in American 
political circles. That explains America's "Jewish love".

I have something more to add, which I felt better to embed in your 
response as capitalized fonts for reasons of maintaining flow of 
ideas.


Regards,
Yogesh

On Fri, 01 Mar 2002 Ashish Hanwadikar wrote :
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Please help make the Manifesto better, or accept it, and 
>propagate it!
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>IPI_Marker
>
>Hi Ritu,
> > Actually, it was the same thing then as it is now - if you are 
>not
> > with us,
> > you are against us. Non alignment was probably one of the 
>few
> > sensible ideas
> > of Nehru.
>
>Come on! Don't mistake pronouncement by angry George Bush the 
>same the
>US foriegn policy.
>
>NAM was a sensible idea? You must be kidding. I agree that India 
>was
>not in the position of taking sides between US and Russia even if 
>it
>wanted to. However, equating Russia (and Communism) and US is 
>just
>plain stupid. You don't have support US in any war. But atleast 
>don't
>provide moral legitimacy to Russian, Chinese (by requesting that 
>China
>be given Security Council Seat in UN to solve Korean crisis), 
>North
>Koreans and Egypt (Remember Nasser?).
>
>Don't kid yourself into believing that US was needing or asking 
>for
>India help in Vietnam or other places. But recognizing that 
>Communist
>dicatorship and democratic Capitalism are totally different and
>recognizing that democracy and Capitalism are superior to 
>theocracy,
>dictatorships and Communism is the least India could have done.
>
NO DENYING TO THAT BUT THERE IS NO HARM IN RECOGNIZING THE 
EXISTENCE OF OTHER FORMS.
>
> > Surely you are not naive enough to believe that it was US's 
>support
> > for the
> > Israeli cause and USSR's opposition of the same that caused 
>the
> > trouble
> > between the two superpowers?
>
>It was a fundamental difference of ideology that caused the 
>problem in
>US and Russia. There is no reason why US should support Israel 
>other
>than the fact that they are a democracy. Just think about it. 
>What does
>the US gains by support Israel against Russia and Arab states? 
>Why? Why
>put billions of dollars in aid to Israel? Why put American lives 
>in
>danger by giving Russians and Arabs a reason to hate Americans? 
>It was
>equally possible that Russian weapons would have helped Arabs to 
>defeat
>Israel in 1967 war. Why go to such a extend to support Israel? US 
>love
>for Jews? Come on!


I THINK I PROVIDED MY REASONING TO THAT ALREADY.
>
>I do not support US intervention all over the World. But if it 
>comes to
>battle between democracy and dictatorship, and between capitalism 
>and
>communism I will support US and Israel anytime, anywhere. And US 
>and
>Israel dont' even have to be right about such thing as land. I 
>will
>still support them unconditionally. Because I believe that if 
>Russian
>and Arabs would have won there was no hope for anybody in the 
>World.

THE AMERICAN RHETORIC OF ANTI-COMMUNISM ALL OVER THE WORLD IS 
MERELY THAT; FACADE FOR PUBLIC. IN IT'S OPERATION ENDURING FREEDOM 
(OR OPERATON INFINITE JUSTICE, WHATEVER) IN AFGHANISTAN, IT HAD 
PROCLAIMED PROUDLY BEFORE THE WAR THAT IT WOULD EVACUATE 
AFGHANISTAN AS SOON AS THE OPERATION IS OVER. NOW THAT THE 
OPERATION IS OVER, AMERICA HAS EXPRESSED ITS LONG TERM INTEREST IN 
THE REGION. AND WHAT PRECISELY IS THAT INTEREST? HELPING PAKISTAN 
ESTABLISH DEMOCRACY, REVERSE THE FUNDAMENTALISM IT FUNDED SOME 
YEARS BACK TO OUST RUSSIA? NO!!! AT LAST AMERICA HAS GOT THE 
"PIVOT" IN THE REGION, I WAS TALKING ABOUT IN MY EARLIER POST. 
IT'S THERE TO STAY, PURSUE ITS "INTEREST" AS LONG AS IT WISHES TO, 
AT ANY COST. THAT IS NOT RESPECTABLE OF COUNTRY YOU SO MUCH BOAST 
OF VALUING HUMAN RIGHTS AND DEMOCRACY.

> > Non-alignment was not neutrality. It was a doctrine that 
>stated that
> > our
> > position on international issues would be decided by what 
>our
> > morality and
> > self-interest dictates and *not* by the decree of either of 
>the
> > super-powers.
> >
>
>What morality? Supporting Chinese seat in Security Council? Or 
>keeping
>quiet about Russia's invasion in Afghanistan? When a Communist 
>Govt.
>like Russia gives economic assistance and helps build weapons 
>for
>India, do you think India was in position to say something 
>against
>Russians. NAM was just an escapist ploy to do way with making a 
>moral
>judgement against Communism and dictatorships. And remember had 
>we
>instead gone for private investment from US by opening up our 
>markets
>criticizing US policies in Vietnam by Indian Govt. would not 
>have
>affected US private investments in India. You see, democracy 
>and
>capitalism gives an degree of independence that Communism and
>dictatorship can never give one.
>
> > Oh puhleeze! As if all countries don't do that at one point or 
>the
> > other.
> > Whatever the practical aspects of NAM were, don't try to make 
>it out
> > as a
> > morally deficit policy.
> >
>
>There is no doubt that all countries do it at one point of time 
>or
>other. But can't you see any difference between killings of 
>innocents
>in Vietnam by US and what Communists did in Vietnam, Kosovo,
>Afghanistan, in their own countries, Cuba etc.? Do you think 
>Russians
>were aware of what thier dictators were doing in Afghanistan? Or 
>even
>if they were knowing about it they could do anything about it? 
>Haven't
>you seen Vietnam war protests in US? Don't you see any 
>difference
>between India's attack on Bangladesh to liberate it from Pakistan 
>and
>Pakistan's attack on Kashmir? And if you can see the difference 
>between
>India and Pakistan why can't you see the difference between 
>Israel and
>PLO?
>
>On hand we have democracies with their press press, separation 
>of
>powers and elected representatives (which can be impeached) and 
>other
>hand we have dictators which if they go out of hand can cause a 
>huge
>catastrophe (Remember Hitler). It is sad that intellectuals can
>recognize the horrors of dictators like Hitler, Mussolini, 
>Lenins,
>Stalins, Maos, Yasser Arafat only after when they kill millions 
>of
>innocents. Can't they just figure that these things are only 
>"natural"
>and logical consequences of thier methods and philosphies? It 
>doesn't
>take a genius to understand that Israel is inherently more 
>accountable
>(even if it is wrong to hold Palestine land) than Yasser Arafat 
>and
>PLO? Why do stupid intellectuals keep on insisting that 
>dictators,
>Communists and theocracies have moral superiority because somehow 
>they
>represent oppressed people? Why? Don't they realize that if 
>these
>assholes really represented oppressed people they should be 
>granting
>these oppressed people the freedom they desire first? And if 
>these
>dictators are forced to give internal freedom and democracy to 
>their
>own subjects do you think Israel, US and India will deny them 
>thier
>lands or other belongings? Come on!
>
> > A] India is *not* poor. Not rich, but not poor either.
> > B] What about all the things our Capiltalist friends did - 
>should we
> > ignore
> > those?
>
>I think that answered the question B] sufficiently. And as to A] 
>it is
>purely a subjective judgement. I point in saying that India was 
>poor is
>to only emphasize that somehow we feel that we represent 
>oppressed
>masses (from Colonolism, Capitalism etc.). It is this feeling
>important!
>
> > Why do we need to do all that?
>
>Do I need to elaborate further?
>
> > Americans might very well be wondering that, but apparently, a 
>lot of
> > americans are insular and not *too* aware of what is 
>happening
> > outside their
> > country. Had they been more informed, they would have known 
>that
> > India was
> > never in the Russian camp.
>
>Come on! Americans are better informed about reality than Indian 
>have.
>It was only in last 10 years that Indian have ever seen foriegn 
>TV. It
>was only few years back that Indians have even used Internet 
>(common
>Indian are still far away from that). We do not have lots of
>independent Radio station. In US you will see talk shows all over 
>the
>place. Foriegn newspapers are common here and so are foreign TV
>stations. India bans FDI in print media and territorial TV
>broadcasting. In US you have CSPAN 24 hours a day beaming live 
>telecast
> from US Congress, Parliaments of other European countries and 
>people
>watch that. US people are better literate than Indians and hence 
>can
>paricipate better in the polity. And unlike in India you have 
>real free
>press here because Govt. cannot cut off electricity to press if 
>they
>publish anything bad against Govt. Nor is newprint import or 
>production
>regulated in US.
>
>It was a better informed and active US citizenry that forced US 
>army to
>pull back from Vietnam. Do we indians really know what happened 
>in
>Bangladesh or Sri Lanka? Maybe most of it was right? But do we 
>know?

I DONT THINK ACCESS TO INFORMATION CREATES MOTIVATION TO ACCESS 
THE INFORMATION. AND THE FACT IS THAT, ALL SAID AND DONE ABOUT THE 
INFRASTRUCTURE FOR INFORMATION, THERE ARE MORE NUMBER OF INDIANS 
THAN AMERICANS WHO ARE INQUISITIVE ABOUT THINGS AROUND. I WOULD 
LIKE TO KNOW OF ONE SUCH AMERCIAN FORUM AS IPI. FROM WHAT I KNOW 
AN TYPICAL AMERICAN IS A 9-5, TWO KID AND A MUTLIPLE-WIFE/ HUSBAND 
PLUS EXTRA AFFAIR PERSON, GENERALLY OBLIVIOUS OF AFFAIRS AROUND. 
NO WONDER ALL MOST OF THEM (AND THERE ARE LOT OF THEM) KNEW ABOUT 
KASHMIR IS THAT IT IS PRONOUNCED AS "CASHMEER" AND THAT THERE IS 
SOMETHING GOING ON THERE THAT CNN WASTES ITS TIME OVER, WHILE WE 
HERE EVEN TALKING ABOUT AMERICA IN NICARAGUA.


> > Okay, Americans are not racist, they love India and Indians 
>and they
> > are the
> > most altruistic people on the earth. What difference does this 
>make?
> > They
> > are still what they are - normal humans with flaws and they 
>still
> > don't care
> > much about the fate of Indians. Which is as it should be. What 
>you
> > seem to
> > forget Ashish is that there is no country in the world today 
>to which
> > a
> > blanket label of 'Good' or 'Evil'' can be honestly applied
>
>blanket label of "Good" or "Evil" cannot be honestly applied to 
>any
>countries. But we can definitely apply to those labels to
>dictatorships, theocracies. Which is exactly what George Bush 
>did! He
>called Saddam Hussein's Iraq, Iran and North Korea an axis of 
>evil. By
>that obviously he did not mean the people there but those in 
>power
>there. I think as a free and democratic country it is our 
>obligation to
>question the legitimacy those assholes. Should we go and remove 
>those
>assholes from power and if yes, using what methods we can 
>definitely
>debate. And for that we have free press, power to elect our
>representatives. But unfortunately our counterparts in those 
>countries
>do not have these freedom. The least we can do is to call those
>assholes evil and provide moral legitimacy and support to 
>freedom
>movement in those countries.
>
> >. US is
> > strong and
> > powerful and would like to remain that way. It would be good 
>to have
> > more
> > help from the US, but not if the price is a total kow-towing 
>to their
> > policies. What is good for America is not necessarily good for 
>India.
> > What I
> > find surprising is your conviction that all we have to do is 
>kiss the
> > US's
> > posterior and the Big Brother would make the world alright for 
>us.
> > Real life
> > doesn't work that way.
>
>I think you have totally misunderstood what I said. I said we 
>should
>morally and sometimes militarily (just like in Gulf War) support 
>US. We
>don't have to support US always. US is not stupid to take any 
>criticism
>of US policies as sign of enmity. I think both US and India are 
>matured
>enough to understand that. What we shouldn't do is to take 
>certain
>stupid fights against US whose very basis is questionable at 
>best.
>There is no point in telling US to sign Kyoto protocols. Because 
>it is
>a nonsense. It is promoted by the same Europeans socialists that 
>US so
>right hates. Kyoto protocol commits the same nonsense. Once you 
>prove
>to the world that US is polluting world (which US is no doubt 
>doing) we
>jump straight to the conclusion that any method (as draconian as 
>Kyoto
>Protocol) is better. And that is the mistake. US will never allow 
>this
>to happen. And over period of last Century US has shown enough 
>resolve
>not to crack under any such pressure in the future. Nor is there 
>any
>point in crying for Guantalame Bay prisoners. US has a very 
>vibrant
>democracy and ACLU (which fight for civil rights for all 
>including
>immigrants). So there is no danger for Guantalmale Bay prisoners 
> from
>US. By decrying US for such stupid things we risk being not 
>taken
>seriously in the future. I think countries like US, Israel, and 
>India
>should be given a respect they deserve and also we should have 
>some
>confidence in their inner workings. No need to cry Wolf Wolf 
>every
>time.
>
> >
> > Also, in another post you made a comment - 'They [muslims] 
>fail to
> > acknowledge the superiority of the western culture..'
> > Since I also fail to recognise any such thing, I was wondering 
>if you
> > could
> > tell me how exactly is the western culture superior.
>
>I think I said enough about this point again and again. But for
>emphasis I will summarize for you. The superiority of Western
>civilization lies in the values of democracy, freedom, property 
>rights
>etc. And remember that when world tried something different each 
>time
>(Fascism, Communism, Socialism) it was proved inefficent, 
>horrible
>everytime. These principles and values were developed over 
>centuries
>right from Greek philosphers. There are continous improvements 
>needed
>and that is how they reached such an efficiency till now. But 
>try
>something drastically different by citing past injustices 
>committed by
>those very people cherising those values and you end destroying
>millions of lives. Haven't we learned something from History?
>
>Regards,
>Ashish



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