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Re: Mr. Ashish should respect....



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IPI_Marker

Hi Ritu,
> Actually, it was the same thing then as it is now - if you are not
> with us,
> you are against us. Non alignment was probably one of the few
> sensible ideas
> of Nehru.

Come on! Don't mistake pronouncement by angry George Bush the same the
US foriegn policy. 

NAM was a sensible idea? You must be kidding. I agree that India was
not in the position of taking sides between US and Russia even if it
wanted to. However, equating Russia (and Communism) and US is just
plain stupid. You don't have support US in any war. But atleast don't
provide moral legitimacy to Russian, Chinese (by requesting that China
be given Security Council Seat in UN to solve Korean crisis), North
Koreans and Egypt (Remember Nasser?).

Don't kid yourself into believing that US was needing or asking for
India help in Vietnam or other places. But recognizing that Communist
dicatorship and democratic Capitalism are totally different and
recognizing that democracy and Capitalism are superior to theocracy,
dictatorships and Communism is the least India could have done.



> Surely you are not naive enough to believe that it was US's support
> for the
> Israeli cause and USSR's opposition of the same that caused the
> trouble
> between the two superpowers?

It was a fundamental difference of ideology that caused the problem in
US and Russia. There is no reason why US should support Israel other
than the fact that they are a democracy. Just think about it. What does
the US gains by support Israel against Russia and Arab states? Why? Why
put billions of dollars in aid to Israel? Why put American lives in
danger by giving Russians and Arabs a reason to hate Americans? It was
equally possible that Russian weapons would have helped Arabs to defeat
Israel in 1967 war. Why go to such a extend to support Israel? US love
for Jews? Come on! 

I do not support US intervention all over the World. But if it comes to
battle between democracy and dictatorship, and between capitalism and
communism I will support US and Israel anytime, anywhere. And US and
Israel dont' even have to be right about such thing as land. I will
still support them unconditionally. Because I believe that if Russian
and Arabs would have won there was no hope for anybody in the World.


> Non-alignment was not neutrality. It was a doctrine that stated that
> our
> position on international issues would be decided by what our
> morality and
> self-interest dictates and *not* by the decree of either of the
> super-powers.
> 

What morality? Supporting Chinese seat in Security Council? Or keeping
quiet about Russia's invasion in Afghanistan? When a Communist Govt.
like Russia gives economic assistance and helps build weapons for
India, do you think India was in position to say something against
Russians. NAM was just an escapist ploy to do way with making a moral
judgement against Communism and dictatorships. And remember had we
instead gone for private investment from US by opening up our markets
criticizing US policies in Vietnam by Indian Govt. would not have
affected US private investments in India. You see, democracy and
capitalism gives an degree of independence that Communism and
dictatorship can never give one. 

> Oh puhleeze! As if all countries don't do that at one point or the
> other.
> Whatever the practical aspects of NAM were, don't try to make it out
> as a
> morally deficit policy.
> 

There is no doubt that all countries do it at one point of time or
other. But can't you see any difference between killings of innocents
in Vietnam by US and what Communists did in Vietnam, Kosovo,
Afghanistan, in their own countries, Cuba etc.? Do you think Russians
were aware of what thier dictators were doing in Afghanistan? Or even
if they were knowing about it they could do anything about it? Haven't
you seen Vietnam war protests in US? Don't you see any difference
between India's attack on Bangladesh to liberate it from Pakistan and
Pakistan's attack on Kashmir? And if you can see the difference between
India and Pakistan why can't you see the difference between Israel and
PLO?

On hand we have democracies with their press press, separation of
powers and elected representatives (which can be impeached) and other
hand we have dictators which if they go out of hand can cause a huge
catastrophe (Remember Hitler). It is sad that intellectuals can
recognize the horrors of dictators like Hitler, Mussolini, Lenins,
Stalins, Maos, Yasser Arafat only after when they kill millions of
innocents. Can't they just figure that these things are only "natural"
and logical consequences of thier methods and philosphies? It doesn't
take a genius to understand that Israel is inherently more accountable
(even if it is wrong to hold Palestine land) than Yasser Arafat and
PLO? Why do stupid intellectuals keep on insisting that dictators,
Communists and theocracies have moral superiority because somehow they
represent oppressed people? Why? Don't they realize that if these
assholes really represented oppressed people they should be granting
these oppressed people the freedom they desire first? And if these
dictators are forced to give internal freedom and democracy to their
own subjects do you think Israel, US and India will deny them thier
lands or other belongings? Come on!

> A] India is *not* poor. Not rich, but not poor either.
> B] What about all the things our Capiltalist friends did - should we
> ignore
> those?

I think that answered the question B] sufficiently. And as to A] it is
purely a subjective judgement. I point in saying that India was poor is
to only emphasize that somehow we feel that we represent oppressed
masses (from Colonolism, Capitalism etc.). It is this feeling
important!

> Why do we need to do all that?

Do I need to elaborate further?

> Americans might very well be wondering that, but apparently, a lot of
> americans are insular and not *too* aware of what is happening
> outside their
> country. Had they been more informed, they would have known that
> India was
> never in the Russian camp.

Come on! Americans are better informed about reality than Indian have.
It was only in last 10 years that Indian have ever seen foriegn TV. It
was only few years back that Indians have even used Internet (common
Indian are still far away from that). We do not have lots of
independent Radio station. In US you will see talk shows all over the
place. Foriegn newspapers are common here and so are foreign TV
stations. India bans FDI in print media and territorial TV
broadcasting. In US you have CSPAN 24 hours a day beaming live telecast
from US Congress, Parliaments of other European countries and people
watch that. US people are better literate than Indians and hence can
paricipate better in the polity. And unlike in India you have real free
press here because Govt. cannot cut off electricity to press if they
publish anything bad against Govt. Nor is newprint import or production
regulated in US. 

It was a better informed and active US citizenry that forced US army to
pull back from Vietnam. Do we indians really know what happened in
Bangladesh or Sri Lanka? Maybe most of it was right? But do we know? 

> Okay, Americans are not racist, they love India and Indians and they
> are the
> most altruistic people on the earth. What difference does this make?
> They
> are still what they are - normal humans with flaws and they still
> don't care
> much about the fate of Indians. Which is as it should be. What you
> seem to
> forget Ashish is that there is no country in the world today to which
> a
> blanket label of 'Good' or 'Evil'' can be honestly applied

blanket label of "Good" or "Evil" cannot be honestly applied to any
countries. But we can definitely apply to those labels to
dictatorships, theocracies. Which is exactly what George Bush did! He
called Saddam Hussein's Iraq, Iran and North Korea an axis of evil. By
that obviously he did not mean the people there but those in power
there. I think as a free and democratic country it is our obligation to
question the legitimacy those assholes. Should we go and remove those
assholes from power and if yes, using what methods we can definitely
debate. And for that we have free press, power to elect our
representatives. But unfortunately our counterparts in those countries
do not have these freedom. The least we can do is to call those
assholes evil and provide moral legitimacy and support to freedom
movement in those countries.

>. US is
> strong and
> powerful and would like to remain that way. It would be good to have
> more
> help from the US, but not if the price is a total kow-towing to their
> policies. What is good for America is not necessarily good for India.
> What I
> find surprising is your conviction that all we have to do is kiss the
> US's
> posterior and the Big Brother would make the world alright for us.
> Real life
> doesn't work that way.

I think you have totally misunderstood what I said. I said we should
morally and sometimes militarily (just like in Gulf War) support US. We
don't have to support US always. US is not stupid to take any criticism
of US policies as sign of enmity. I think both US and India are matured
enough to understand that. What we shouldn't do is to take certain
stupid fights against US whose very basis is questionable at best.
There is no point in telling US to sign Kyoto protocols. Because it is
a nonsense. It is promoted by the same Europeans socialists that US so
right hates. Kyoto protocol commits the same nonsense. Once you prove
to the world that US is polluting world (which US is no doubt doing) we
jump straight to the conclusion that any method (as draconian as Kyoto
Protocol) is better. And that is the mistake. US will never allow this
to happen. And over period of last Century US has shown enough resolve
not to crack under any such pressure in the future. Nor is there any
point in crying for Guantalame Bay prisoners. US has a very vibrant
democracy and ACLU (which fight for civil rights for all including
immigrants). So there is no danger for Guantalmale Bay prisoners from
US. By decrying US for such stupid things we risk being not taken
seriously in the future. I think countries like US, Israel, and India
should be given a respect they deserve and also we should have some
confidence in their inner workings. No need to cry Wolf Wolf every
time.

> 
> Also, in another post you made a comment - 'They [muslims] fail to
> acknowledge the superiority of the western culture..'
> Since I also fail to recognise any such thing, I was wondering if you
> could
> tell me how exactly is the western culture superior.

I think I said enough about this point again and again. But for
emphasis I will summarize for you. The superiority of Western
civilization lies in the values of democracy, freedom, property rights
etc. And remember that when world tried something different each time
(Fascism, Communism, Socialism) it was proved inefficent, horrible
everytime. These principles and values were developed over centuries
right from Greek philosphers. There are continous improvements needed
and that is how they reached such an efficiency till now. But try
something drastically different by citing past injustices committed by
those very people cherising those values and you end destroying
millions of lives. Haven't we learned something from History?

Regards,
Ashish


--- Ritu Ko <ritu_ko@hotmail.com> wrote:
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Please help make the Manifesto better, or accept it, and propagate
> it!
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> IPI_Marker
> 
> Ashish Hanwadikar wrote:
> 
> >This is not true. Americans were not arrogant about India's struggle
> in
> >the region. It was India's support of the Russia that caused the
> >problem.
> 
> Actually, it was the same thing then as it is now - if you are not
> with us,
> you are against us. Non alignment was probably one of the few
> sensible ideas
> of Nehru.
> 
> >How do you expect Americans to react when they know it was
> >Russia that supported Arab countries like Syria, Jordan and Egypt
> >attacking Israel while India continue to pursue the policy of
> >non-alignment.
> 
> Surely you are not naive enough to believe that it was US's support
> for the
> Israeli cause and USSR's opposition of the same that caused the
> trouble
> between the two superpowers?
> 
> >Non-alignment with what?
> 
> Non-alignment with either of the two blocs that dominated the world
> at that
> time.
> 
> >Neutrality to what?
> 
> Non-alignment was not neutrality. It was a doctrine that stated that
> our
> position on international issues would be decided by what our
> morality and
> self-interest dictates and *not* by the decree of either of the
> super-powers.
> 
> >Neutrality
> >to crime and butchering of innocent civilians?
> 
> Oh puhleeze! As if all countries don't do that at one point or the
> other.
> Whatever the practical aspects of NAM were, don't try to make it out
> as a
> morally deficit policy.
> 
> >Nonsense! I think
> >socialism in India is not just an economic failure but much more
> than.
> >We have unknowingly contributed to expansion of Communism in the
> World
> >because of our association with Russia, and North Korea. We need to
> >realize is that just because India itself is poor does not mean we
> can
> >ignore what our Communist friends did to other people in the World.
> 
> A] India is *not* poor. Not rich, but not poor either.
> B] What about all the things our Capiltalist friends did - should we
> ignore
> those?
> 
> >
> >>Forget about what happened in the Past. We have made our share of
> >mistakes. We need to declare our unequivocal support of US position
> >against Iraq, Iran and North Korea.
> 
> Why do we need to do all that?
> 
> >And we need to trade more with US.
> 
> I am not aware of anyone ever saying no to that idea.
> 
> >Actually, Americans must be wondering how come India with its rich
> >tradition, secular democracy and free press wound up in the Russian
> >camp.
> 
> Americans might very well be wondering that, but apparently, a lot of
> americans are insular and not *too* aware of what is happening
> outside their
> country. Had they been more informed, they would have known that
> India was
> never in the Russian camp.
> 
> >We, the Indian people, need to do our part in not making
> >irresponsible statement against US. It is okay to critisize US
> foriegn
> >policy but you have to keep in mind the context.
> 
> And the context is...???
> 
> >Stop making stupid
> >comments on US saying that it is racist, they hate us, they are
> selfish
> >and what else! And we need to stop supporting stupid socialist
> >Europeans trying to constrain US under the name of Kyoto protocol or
> >IBM Treaty or opposing building Missile Shield by US. And expect
> >handsome reward of not only weapons to protect us against China and
> >others but also lot of cooperation in trade and environmental areas.
> 
> Okay, Americans are not racist, they love India and Indians and they
> are the
> most altruistic people on the earth. What difference does this make?
> They
> are still what they are - normal humans with flaws and they still
> don't care
> much about the fate of Indians. Which is as it should be. What you
> seem to
> forget Ashish is that there is no country in the world today to which
> a
> blanket label of 'Good' or 'Evil'' can be honestly applied. US is
> strong and
> powerful and would like to remain that way. It would be good to have
> more
> help from the US, but not if the price is a total kow-towing to their
> policies. What is good for America is not necessarily good for India.
> What I
> find surprising is your conviction that all we have to do is kiss the
> US's
> posterior and the Big Brother would make the world alright for us.
> Real life
> doesn't work that way.
> 
> Also, in another post you made a comment - 'They [muslims] fail to
> acknowledge the superiority of the western culture..'
> Since I also fail to recognise any such thing, I was wondering if you
> could
> tell me how exactly is the western culture superior.
> 
> 
> Ritu



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