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Re: From Anurag



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Please help make the Manifesto better, or accept it, and propagate it!
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Raju, 

Feel free to use my name instead of "the respondant".  Anyways, from you
response I have gathered that I did not sufficiently explain myself.  My
questions at the end of each example "Who was wrong here?" were answered at
the end.  Let me elaborate...

a]  I do not seek that I be pronounced "Not Guilty".  I have granted neither
you nor the government that moral sanction.  I live by my moral code, that I
am and will be a free individual.  If it sounds like Ayn Rand, thats because
it is.  I do not believe that India is a free country.  The people of India
have collectively handed over their freedom to the government and the
beauracracy.  

b]  I do not believe that at this juncture in my life, I should waste my
time fighting for my rights in India when an alternative is available.  I
choose to live in the United States.  When I can, from a position of
strength, I will fight for my rights in India.  That is why I have chosen to
join this forum.  Because I believe, you can help me.  

c]  I am sorry but I do not really understand your last para.  Please
explain it to me...

d]  Also, try this approach.  Check your premise.  Can you paint all those
who are corrupt as wrong???  Given my assumption that Indians do not enjoy
freedom, can you paint them "wrong", those who assert their rights by
circumventing flawed legislation.  Does the government have the right to
tell me which telephone I can use and what features it may or may not have? 
Is living subdued under a regime that robs your freedom the "right" way to
live?  I did not give you an extreme example the last time, but here it
is...  Did you now that any form of oral or anal sex is a crime in India. 
Does the government have a right to come into my bedroom and tell me how I
can make love to my partner?  If in the extremely unlikely event that
criminal proceedings were brought against me for having oral sex with my
mate, should I live the "right" way and go to jail...  Does the government
have the right to grant anyone IT chooses, the lisences to operate petrol
pumps or open a vineyard, while denying me that same right because I do not
have the requisite political connections?  Paying those in power is wrong
because you are playing the game they want you to, because you may not have
accepted their moral code, but you are still subjecting yourself to it.  
But living the "right" way as you claim is even more wrong, because you have
accepted their moral code and pronounced it "RIGHT"...

In light of the above, I ask Dr. Sablok that the manifesto contain basic
"inalienable" rights and moral codes that are considered to be "self-evident
truths" which the government cannot challenge or trample or take away, just
like the US constitution...

Abhijeet



--- R Bharatiya <arantxa@nde.vsnl.net.in> wrote:
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Please help make the Manifesto better, or accept it, and propagate it!
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> IN A PLACE WHERE NOBODY IS WRONG
> Everyone at IPI is sufficiently passionate(the minimum requirement) and
> more
> importantly inherently honest(the proclaimed requirement) as also very
> rational(The requirement)
> Against this backdrop I feel that I am responding to somebody who meets
> all
> the aforesaid QRs.The normal tendency at such forum is a recourse to use a
> fradulent pronoun known as WE. I am extremely happy that the gentleman has
> not used it.Instead he has stated examples about his or his folks
> doings.That is the most pertinent point and it is because of that alone
> that
> I felt compelled to register a reply.
> Well done Sir.I truly believe that I am a part of everything that is wrong
> in the life that surrounds me.If it had been otherwise,how would I know
> about it? But there is another problem.I want to get ahead in life.There
> may
> be many who may want to do the same.The set up in which I exist there is
> no
> OPEN race.What do I do in such scenario?
> That is what the respondant to Anurag has highlighted and surely wants
> that
> he be declared NOT GUILTY.I will do so without any delay but:
> Will it end all queries as to why things go wrong?
> And why wrongs have to be accepted as norms?
> Or worse that if the number of wrongs exceeds the rights forget about the
> latter!
> I do not do any of the above and I suffer.But then sufferings and
> unhappiness is not synonimous and so I continue to be a very happy person
> despite all.May I urge all to dwell upon this aspect of APPROACH.
> Thank you,
> Raju Bharatiya
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Abhijeet Pradhan <perdi420@yahoo.com>
> To: <debate@indiapolicy.org>
> Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2000 9:03 AM
> Subject: Re: From Anurag
> 
> 
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Please help make the Manifesto better, or accept it, and propagate it!
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Dr. Sabhlok,
> >
> > Incentivising the "good" to join politics assumes that people who join
> > politics are bad to begin with.  But there are various reasons why the
> good
> > go bad in politics and other areas of the government.  I will take this
> > opportunity to write on corruption and what I feel are the two root
> causes.
> >
> >
> > 1. Low Pay is an obvious cause of corruption.  Firemen, postmen,
> havaldars
> > are examples of some of the government employees, not paid enough to
> live
> a
> > decent honest life (at least in Bombay).  I even read of a case where
> the
> > money havaldars used to collect from motorists would go towards the
> > financing the xeroxing costs of the police station, so that they could
> file
> > their reports...
> >
> > 2. The biggest cause of corruption I think are socialist laws and lack
> of
> > freedom.  I will give some examples extreme and otherwise to prove my
> case.
> >  The system truly encourages corruption...
> > A.  In the mid 80's you could not have a telephone other than the
> standard
> > issue MTNL black rotary telephone.  Secondly, you could not run an
> extension
> > cord to another room in the house to connect another phone to the same
> line,
> > unless you got some sort of a permit and paid an extra annual fee.  Then
> > too, you would still get a standard issue phone.  My father, on one of
> his
> > trips purchased a reliable panasonic button phone with such conveniences
> as
> > redial and memory and attached it inside his bedroom.  The phoneman came
> to
> > inspect the other phone, saw the extra line running inside and
> immediately
> > asked for a fine and the removal of the extra phone.  We negotiated
> instead
> > for a 10 rupee bribe.  My question is, who was wrong here???  The
> phoneman
> > for following a stupid rule or we, who refused to accept these stupid
> rules.
> >
> > B.  A friend of mine wanted to start a small handmade paper factory. 
> The
> > process involves no chemicals other than a biodegradeable starch
> adhesive,
> > and in fact recycles waste cotton.  She wanted to set it up in her
> native
> > village.  However, she was not given a permit to start one as the
> government
> > lists paper as a heavy pollution industry and her village was outside
> the
> > zone for such industry.  She tried in vain to get them to see the
> difference
> > in the two industries, filed the requisite paperwork, but to no avail...
> An
> > officer in the department where she was supposed to get the permit gave
> her
> > a solution.  "List it as a company making something other than paper,
> and
> > during our annual inspections just pay us something to keep us happy.
> Thats
> > what everyone else does it anyway..."  Is the officer wrong?  He knows
> my
> > friend will not get a permit, at the same time, he is intelligent enough
> to
> > see that my friends plant was not polluting, and thus should get a
> permit.
> > He offered her a solution and demanded a little money for the assumption
> of
> > the risk of issuing a permit.  Whether he was right or wrong depends on
> your
> > point of view, but what is not debateable is that it was the system
> which
> > forced two individuals to behave in a twisted way.
> >
> >
> > The government has taken away very important freedoms from us.  The
> freedom
> > to create wealth.  The government through its licences and permits gets
> to
> > choose who amoung us will have the opportunity to create wealth.  Given
> that
> > they have so much power, is it abnormal that government employees
> including
> > politicians demand their cut, and behave like public masters, rather
> than
> > public servants.  Why is it still such a big deal to open a wine or
> liqour
> > plant?  Why do politicians in some states still try to impose
> prohibition,
> > if not to raise money for elections and personal use?  How is it that
> they
> > have the power to take away our freedom to enjoy a responsible glass of
> > alcohol?  This can happen with any industry, even a textile manufacturer
> may
> > not get the permit to expand his capacity.  The point is, why does he
> need
> > permission anyways?  As long as he abides by some environmental laws,
> pays
> > his taxes and is not killing someone etc, he should just have to notify
> the
> > government, not seek its approval...
> >
> > Where am I going with all this...  In a nutshell, as long as laws exist,
> > that restrict us from doing what comes naturally to humans, or curb
> > freedoms, there will always be corruption.  Not only should we fight to
> > repeal these laws, to win back our freedom, but also to devise a system
> > where no politician or government agency can ever take these away from
> us.
> > If this is done the system will clean itself.  People are inherently
> good.
> > Have faith in them.  Corruption is a symptom (of a flawed system), not
> the
> > problem...
> >
> >
> > Abhijeet
> >
> >
> > --- "Dr. Sanjeev Sabhlok" <sanjeev@sabhlokcity.com> wrote:
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Please help make the Manifesto better, or accept it, and propagate it!
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Dear Anurag: Very good questions. I will try to respond to your's and
> > > other's queries through a paper I am trying to write. Of course,
> others
> > > are
> > > free to answer/ comment. In the meanwhile, pl. try to devise a system
> > > whereby you incentivise the 'good' to join politics; all our
> 'greatness'
> > > as
> > > Indians is no good unless we can solve this problem. Surely there are
> some
> > > CV Ramans still with us.
> > >
> > > BTW, it was fun talking to you guys at VGSOM, Kharagpur, last month.
> > >
> > > At 08:54 PM 03/03/2000 IST, "anurag jain" <anurag_jain10@hotmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >Dear Mr. Sanjeev,
> > > >To introduce myself i am among the few lucky ones to have a direct
> > > >interactive session with you, courtsey Prof. Roy & VGSOM.
> > > >Regarding the laws i'd some reservations,
> > > >To make their remuneration resonable you are proposing for the hike
> in
> > > their
> > > >present salary. But this may possibly have more than one
> implications,
> it
> > > is
> > > >quite possible that even with attractive salary the honest people may
> > > still
> > > >not find it attactive enough to join politics, as you are
> postulating.
> > > This
> > > >will be a real cause of concern as it may just boomrang upon us and
> more
> > > >corrupt and anti-social element may find it further rewarding to join
> > > >politics.
> > > >Hence the total purpose will be defeated.
> > > >Waiting for your comments
> > > >Anurag
> > > >______________________________________________________
> > > >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > This is the National Debate on System Reform.
> debate@indiapolicy.org
> > > Rules, Procedures, Archives:
> http://www.indiapolicy.org/debate/
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------


=====
Ah Love, could you and I conspire, To grasp this sorry state of things
entire, 
To smash it all into a million bits, And mold it back to heart's desire.

Jab purdah nahi koi khudah seh, to bandhon se purdah kya.

Abhijeet A. Pradhan, 44J, Reading Rd, Edison, NJ 08817
Tel #: 732-452-1157      email: perdi420@yahoo.com
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This is the National Debate on System Reform.       debate@indiapolicy.org
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