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Re: Re:



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Dear all,

When shorn of semantic misunderstandings and denigration by association (or
wordsmithery), seems like many of us support the same basic principles.

So in a sense seeming polarization is artificial.
I hope we can dispassionately focus on ideas and information to eliminate
this uneccessary division.

We have had more than our share of divide and rule.

CHEEEERS!
Rakesh Raju

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Garg" <gargsam@hotmail.com>
To: <debate@indiapolicy.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: Re:


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Please help make the Manifesto better, or accept it, and propagate it!
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Rakesh Raju,
>
> >While all are against anarchy; As a citizen i look to our law to >protect
> >society. What happened in 1992 was against our then and >current law. I
> >believe in the rule of law while you seem to support >settling of scores
> >any which way.
>
> Please re-read my posts carefully.  I indicated very clearly that there
was
> a long process of discussion and negotiation with muslim leaders prior to
> Ayodhya.  It was muslim intractability which prevented justice being done.
> It is your kind of thinking which leads to the 'settling of scores'
> mentality by denying and postponing justice.  Having said this, all those
> who broke the law in 1992 must be punished.
>
> >To extraploate on your logic:
> >What if the Shudra leadership takes the case to the VHP that all their
> >temples are offensive because they are symbols of fascism. And then >what
> >if they decide to "correct" the situation? would you be equally
>supportive
> >of this mob rajya?-Rakesh Raju
>
> Far from extrapolating my logic - your statement is completely devoid of
any
> logic.  You've taken a giant leap to nowhere and left all of us behind.
>
>
> Sanjay Garg
>
>
> >From: "Rakesh Raju" <zoot@squishyfx.com>
> >Reply-To: debate@indiapolicy.org
> >To: <debate@indiapolicy.org>
> >Subject: Re: Re:
> >Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 06:45:03 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Please help make the Manifesto better, or accept it, and propagate it!
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Dear Sanjay Garg,
> >While all are against anarchy; As a citizen i look to our law to protect
> >society. What happened in 1992 was against our then and current law. I
> >believe in the rule of law while you seem to support settling of scores
any
> >which way.
> >
> >To extraploate on your logic:
> >What if the Shudra leadership takes the case to the VHP that all their
> >temples are offensive because they are symbols of fascism. And then what
if
> >they decide to "correct" the situation? would you be equally supportive
of
> >this mob rajya?
> >
> >-Rakesh Raju
> >
> > > >But that doesn't alter the fact that a barbaric criminal act was
> > > > >committed. Many people were involved as actors,directors,sponsors
and
> > > > >thousands died.
> > >
> > > When a murderer is punished for a heinous crime, is it a 'barbaric
> >criminal
> > > act?'  By any civilized standard this would be regarded as justice,
pure
> >and
> > > simple. This is a fundamental and necessary rule of life, without
which
> >we
> > > will have widespread anarchy.  Surely, you are not advocating that,
are
> >you?
> >
> >
> > > >Cause --  Deep resentment over perceived flaw in bill of rights.
> > > >Symptom - Mosque deconstructed. Two thousand citizens too.
> > > >PM:    "It was the will of the majority"
> > >
> > > Cause - Deep *and growing* resentment over perceived flaw in bill of
> >rights
> > > which sees the continual and pervasive appeasement of minorities.
> > > Symptom:  So long as this fundamental cause is not addressed, it will
> > > manifest itself in ugly incidents such as the Babri.  FYI, there is a
> >demand
> > > for 3 more major temple sites in North India put forward to Muslim
> > > leadership by the VHP.  In the South, there is at least one major site
> >which
> > > is on the table.  Unfortunately, muslims have been dragging their feet
> >on
> > > this issue for years now.  Needless to say, these have the potential
to
> > > explode into another Babri.
> > >
> > > This demand is dwarfed by the complete universe of 80,000 sites all
> >across
> > > India.  3,000 of these sites have been thoroughly and conclusively
> > > documented based on islamic documents of the period.
> > >
> > > >This is no way to reassure the citizens of Indian that they will be
> > > > >treated uniformly and with civility.
> > >
> > > If a criminal and a law abiding citizen are both treated 'uniformly',
it
> >is,
> > > in fact, a slap in the face of the law abiding citizen.
> > >
> > > Sanjay Garg
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Rakesh Raju" <mail@raju.net>
> > > >Reply-To: debate@indiapolicy.org
> > > >To: <debate@indiapolicy.org>
> > > >Subject: Re:
> > > >Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:09:12 -0800 (PST)
> > > >
> > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >Please help make the Manifesto better, or accept it, and propagate
it!
> > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >Dear Sam Garg,
> > > >
> > > >I don't know how I managed to convey that a majority has to swallow
the
> > > >fact
> > > >that it has no rights whatsover, but I don't want to get into a
> >semantics
> > > >debate or discuss the merits of the statistical methods you employed;
I
> >am
> > > >not qualified.
> > > >
> > > >But I would like to respond to your conclusion:
> > > >
> > > > > You confuse symptoms with cause.  The re-establishment of a
> >destroyed
> > > >temple
> > > > > is merely the symptom of a deep resentment at a flawed bill of
> >rights.
> > > >
> > > >No confusion here. I have seen examples of crude mosques that were
> > > >obviously
> > > >once temples, as in Varansi where it is right next to the golden
temple
> >and
> > > >you can still see parts of the original structure. I felt and still
> >feel
> > > >the
> > > >resentment quite strongly. I can relate to how people got amped and
> >went
> > > >nuts. As thermodymanics it makes total sense: a "correction", as
> >Naipaul
> > > >refers to it.
> > > >
> > > >But that doesn't alter the fact that a barbaric criminal act was
> >committed.
> > > >Many people were involved as actors,directors,sponsors and thousands
> >died.
> > > >
> > > >          Cause --  Deep resentment over perceived flaw in bill of
> >rights.
> > > >          Symptom - Mosque deconstructed. Two thousand citizens too.
> > > >             PM:    "It was the will of the majority"
> > > >
> > > >This is no way to reassure the citizens of Indian that they will be
> >treated
> > > >uniformly and with civility.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >-Rakesh Raju
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Sam Garg" <gargsam@hotmail.com>
> > > >To: <debate@indiapolicy.org>
> > > >Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 8:59 PM
> > > >Subject: Re:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > Please help make the Manifesto better, or accept it, and propagate
> >it!
> > > > >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > Dear Rakesh Raju,
> > > > >
> > > > > Just as respectfully, I, too, take issue with your seeming logic:
> > > > >
> > > > > >Mr Vajpayee's statements reflected the will of the BJP and its
> > > > > > >supporters.
> > > > >
> > > > > Even if what you say is correct, it is well within accepted limits
> >for
> >a
> > > > > party leader to reflect the will of his constituents.
> > > > >
> > > > > >He deserves to be exiled to Saudi Arabia for succumbing to
> >electoral
> > > > > >politics.
> > > > >
> > > > > An absurd comment. By your standard, every political leader from
> >every
> > > > > country will soon be calling Saudi home.  At this rate, Saudi
> >nationals
> > > > > would soon be outnumbered by exiled politicians from every
> >democracy.
> > > > >
> > > > > >As a long time NRI I see overwhelming nausea...from fellow NRIs.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your nauseous state is self-evident. Pray provide some evidence of
> >other
> > > > > nauseated NRIs, as I provided to support my statement.  Easy to
make
> > > >tall
> > > > > claims....
> > > > >
> > > > > >Your example illustrates that BJP supporters are more vocal.
> > > > > >Its possible...I'll buy it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Strange as it may seem to you, BJP supporters do not need your
'buy
> >in'.
> > > > > You seem to have missed the simple math in my little statistic -
> >there
> > > >was
> > > > > more than 20 times the normal response rate for this particular
> >issue -
> > > > > almost all of them pro Vajpayee. To sweep this under the rug would
> >be
> > > > > foolhardy and irrational.
> > > > >
> > > > > >FIRST;  since when did the the bjp become a majority?
> > > > > >SECOND; && Even if it were a majority, representative democracy
> > > > > >works within a bill of rights. If a majority says, "liquidate the
> > > > >jews"
> > > >,
> > > > > >it does not become right.
> > > > >
> > > > > FIRST:  Please re-read my intial post carefully - I wrote 'bjp
> > > >represents
> > > > > the will of the majority' on this issue.
> > > > > SECOND: Really?  by what universal standard?  if the majority in
ANY
> > > >country
> > > > > decides to do ANYTHING, who will stop it?
> > > > >
> > > > > >Again; bjp and its spporters are a minority.  A vocal and
> >demolition
> > > > >savvy
> > > > > >minority, but still; a minority.
> > > > >
> > > > > Why make this redundant statement? you yourself claim in your
> >previous
> > > >point
> > > > > that even if the bjp had a majority this 'would not be right' i.e
> >you
> > > >want
> > > > > to eat your cake and have it too.  What you are really asking me
to
> > > >swallow
> > > > > is that the majority has no rights whatsoever in their own
country,
> > > > > regardless whether they have a majority or minority government.
> > > > >
> > > > > >How is razing of a 16th century religious structure in the 21st,
> > > > > >deinstitutionalizing differences ?
> > > > >
> > > > > You confuse symptoms with cause.  The re-establishment of a
> >destroyed
> > > >temple
> > > > > is merely the symptom of a deep resentment at a flawed bill of
> >rights.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Sanjay Garg
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: "Rakesh Raju" <mail@raju.net>
> > > > > >Reply-To: debate@indiapolicy.org
> > > > > >To: <debate@indiapolicy.org>
> > > > > >Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 07:53:04 -0800 (PST)
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >Please help make the Manifesto better, or accept it, and
propagate
> >it!
> > > > >
> > >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Dear "Sam" Garg,
> > > > > >      I respectfully disagree with your inferences:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mr Vajpayee's statements reflected the will of the people.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >        Mr Vajpayee's statements reflected the will of the BJP
and
> >its
> > > > > >        supporters.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >He deserves not
> > > > > > > censure but praise and support for his courageous statement.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >       He deserves to be exiled to Saudi Arabia for succumbing to
> > > >electoral
> > > > > >       politics.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >As a long time
> > > > > > > NRI, I see around me overwhelming support for Mr Vajpayee's
> > > >statements
> > > > > > >from fellow NRIs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >       As a long time NRI I see overwhelming nausea...from fellow
> >NRIs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Case in point -  I frequent another open discussion forum
> > > > > > > which discusses and debates current topics from India.  When
Mr
> > > > > >Vajpayee's
> > > > > > > statements were posted on the board, it generated a flood of
> > > >supporting
> > > > > > > comments.  In fact, when all was said and done, there over a
100
> > > > > >messages,
> > > > > > > the vast majority in support of Vajpayee.  ...To any
reasonable
> > > >person,
> > > > > > >this little  >example illustrates the broad based, grass roots
> > > >support
> > > > > >that
> > > > > > >Mr Vajpayee enjoys on this issue.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >       Your example illustrates that BJP supporters are more
vocal.
> > > > > >       Its possible...I'll buy it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To chastise him for reflecting the will of the majority goes
> >against
> > > >the
> > > > > > > very essence of a representative democracy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >       FIRST;  since when did the the bjp become a majority?
> > > > > >       SECOND; && Even if it were a majority, representative
> >democracy
> > > > > >               works within a bill of rights. If a majority says,
> > > > > >               "liquidate the jews" , it does not become right.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > It also renders the second
> > > > > > > point moot - it is the majority, as is its right, which is
> >rejecting
> > > >the
> > > > > > > constitution, not Vajpayee.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >        Again; bjp and its spporters are a minority.
> > > > > >        A vocal and demolition savvy minority, but still; a
> >minority.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >The majority can no longer swallow a document
> > > > > > > which institutionalises differences - it would be akin to
> >separate
> > > > > > > constitutions for blacks and whites in USA and would be
laughed
> >out
> > > >of
> > > >a
> > > > > > > grade 5 classroom here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >       How is razing of a 16th century religious structure in the
> >21st,
> > > > > >       deinstitutionalizing differences ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >-Rakesh
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >From: prabhu.guptara@ubs.com
> > > > > > > >Reply-To: debate@indiapolicy.org
> > > > > > > >To: debate@indiapolicy.org
> > > > > > > >Subject: apology needed from Mr Vajpayee for betraying his
Oath
> >of
> > > > > >Office
> > > > > > > >Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 06:54:34 -0800 (PST)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > >Please help make the Manifesto better, or accept it, and
> >propagate
> > > >it!
> > > > > > >
> > > >
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > >All Indian organisations and individuals should support the
> > > >following
> > > > > > > >demand
> > > > > > > >for an intervention by the President, and for an apology from
> >Mr
> > > > > >Vajpayee,
> > > > > > > >and
> > > > > > > >should urge evryone to stop dealing with Mr Vajpayee as long
as
> >he
> > > >does
> > > > > >not
> > > > > > > >issue such an apology.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Whether he can and will dismiss the ministers is entirely a
> > > >political
> > > > > > > >matter:
> > > > > > > >if there is enough support for the move within and outside
> >India,
> > > >he
> > > > > >will
> > > > > > > >have
> > > > > > > >to do so, but that, I repeat, is a political matter.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >The apology relates to a matter which has resulted in his
> >betraying
> > > >the
> > > > > > > >Constitution of India which he swore to uphold when he took
the
> > > >office
> > > > > >of
> > > > > > > >Prime
> > > > > > > >Minister.  Like every other citizen he can follow due process
> >of
> > > >law
> > > >in
> > > > > > > >seeking
> > > > > > > >to change the Constitution, but if he violates the
Constitution
> >or
> > > >any
> > > > > > > >other
> > > > > > > >law, he should suffer the penalty for it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Given Indian realities, it is extremely unlikely that he will
> >be
> > > > > >impeached
> > > > > > > >(as
> > > > > > > >he should be) but he should be forced at least to offer an
> >apology.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >prabhu guptara
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >PRESIDENT INTERVENTION SOUGHT:
> > > > > > > >The All India Babri Masjid Re-building Committee (AIBMRC)
> >demanded
> > > >a
> > > > > >public
> > > > > > > >apology from the Prime Minister, Mr. Atal Behari Vajpayee,
for
> >his
> > > > > > > >statement on Ram temple and dismissal of charge-sheeted Union
> > > > > >Ministers,
> > > > > >L
> > > > > > > >K Advani, Mr. Murli Manohar Joshi and Ms. Uma Bharti, in the
> >Babri
> > > > > >Masjid
> > > > > > > >demolition case. Seeking the President, Mr. K R Narayanan's
> > > > > >intervention
> > > > > >in
> > > > > > > >the matter, the AIBMRC in a letter requested him to refer all
> >the
> > > > > >disputes
> > > > > > > >of Babri Masjid - Ram Janmabhoomi to the Supreme Court under
> > > >Article
> > > > > >138-B
> > > > > > > >of the Constitution for a final, time bound and binding
> >decision.
> > > > > >(HINDU,
> > > > > > > >14 Dec.)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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