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Re: PUBLIC: Re: Trusteeship, the nature of man, and utopia



---Prabhu.Guptara@cinenet.net wrote:
I do not know how much your statements are the result of factual 
investigations and how much they are the result of mere impressions 
gathered from the anti- and non-religious sentiment in the upper 
reaches of the two-tier American culture I spoke about in an earlier 
post (the lower tier is highly religious).

KUSH:
Prabhu:  Religion has little to do with corruption.  I think Sanjeev
has already taken you up on that.  Therefore, I do not want to be
repetitive.  But your Judeo-Christian evangelical premise is utterly
false.  However, even from the Judeo-Christian point of view you will
agree that all persons are created equal?  And that all are sinful. 
Therefore, your implied claim that somehow over the years through
encluturation or what not people with a Judeo-Christian upbringing
have deveopled a higher sense of morality is utterly false.  Morality,
is in the heart of a person.  Conscience is in every man. Like I said
in my last post that given the opportunity American as a whole have
the same potential of corruption as Mexicans, Nigerians, Pakistanis,
Indonesians, Greeks or Indians.  That observation is based on
objective studies and not my impressions. 

PRABHUGUPTARA:
I would like to suggest that there is a difference between making 
organisational changes due to demographics and making fundamental 
compromises on essential beliefs because the intellectual environment 
has changed.

KUSH:
No one is asking anyone to make compromises on essential beliefs. An
individual can continue to believe in whatever they like.  Democracy
by definition is pluralistic.     

PRABHUGUPTARA:
Yes, of course you will find Jews, Catholics and Protestants who have
"made compromises", but if you will look at the resurgence in
grass-roots religiosity  since the Sixties, you will see (as has been
documented by several researchers) that (i) American popular
religiosity continues unabated, (ii) that it does have a profound
impact on the lives of Americans - for example in their sense of
responsibility for their communities and country (though we may not
like particular expressions of that sense of responsibility) and (iii)
that the most 
popular and indeed growing brands of Protestantism are those which have 
compromised least with "the spirit of the age" (Catholicism and
Judaism have  compromised more, and have suffered more decline in
involvement). 
These are matters of fact, not of my opinion or yours or anyone else's.

KUSH:
Religion I am sure has its impact on a segment of the population in
every country and culture.  There are purists, fundamentalists,
"no-compromisers" and compromisers.  So what's the point?

PRABHGUPTARA:
You are of course right in saying that public corruption declined when
people in  America "got tired of corruption and decided to do
something about it".  The  question is why did they get tired of it? 
It had something to do with the  impact of the Great Awakening; it had
something to do with their sense of  offense at the gap between the
structure of the morality of their private lives  versus the
corruption of their public life.

KUSH:
I already answered that in my previous post.  I do not know which
"great awakening" are you talking about.  Sounds absolutely bizzare. 
The reasons for getting rid of corruption were, IMO, 80% economic
(corruption is bad for all businesses) and 20% sociological (people's
expectation of government and government institutions has continued to
increase as economic conditions and litracy improves)

PRABHUGUPTARA:
Perhaps you have an explanation for why our people have not got tired
of the increasing corruption of public life  right since Independence.
 What motivated Americans to do something about corruption in their
society?  Why is there a lack of motivation in our society?

KUSH:
Yes, I do.  Us, Indians had very little experience with self-rule,
government, governance and democracy.  We took it for granted that
democracy automatically produces good government, it does not.  The
political and business class in the meanwhile saw a limitless
opportunity for themselves.  You forget that reformation in the
government here in America only started in the early part of this
century (after two hundred years of a corrupt system and machine
politics).  Regarding India, our efforts here indicate that people are
NOW sick and tired of corruption.  Indians are displaying this trait
in less than fifty years, and thereby, are ahead of the Americans.
Lastly, business people have not completely realized that corruption
is bad for business.  As I have said before that a corrupt government
has no incentive to change.
YOU ARE COMPLETELY WRONG ON THE MOTIVIATION ASPECT.  EACH DAY MORE AND
MORE PEOPLE ARE COMING TOGETHER AND FORMING ASSOCIATIONS AND GROUPS
SUCH AS THIS ONE SO THAT INDIA CAN BE REFORMED AND RESTORED.  PLEASE
OPEN YOUR EYES AND EARS TO THE SPIRIT OF THE TIME, PRABHU.

PRABHUGUPTARA:
At this point, I confess that I have not looked up the earlier
discussion on corruption in the IP archives, so I must remedy this
lack in my education before  engaging further on this!

KUSH:
Your confession is accepted and the transgression is forgiven.  I
agree, it is not easy to read our archives!

PRABHUGUPTARA:
Equally, I think you will benefit from Mangalwadi's INDIA: THE GRAND
EXPERIMENT in which he points out that even our own pride in our own
heritage was made  possible because of the work of foreigners who were
inspired by their devotion  to God and therefore stood against the
interests of their own country (Britain) and laid the foundations of
freedom for India knowing that it would make Indian  independence
inevitable (a politically-unfashionable thesis but TRUE).

KUSH:
I do not know this book, but the suggestion is bizzare.

PRABHUGUPTARA:
Actually, the old division of Protestant, Catholic, Jew is no longer
valid anywhere in the world; the new division should be between those
who take traditional teaching seriously and those who
n't....traditional catholics and protestants and jews seem to think
that they have more in common with each other than with people who
have "lapsed" from their own denomination...
> 
KUSH:
I am not qualified to comment on inter-denominational disputes among
Protestants, Catholic or Jews.  In any case I see no relevance of the
above to our making sound policy for India based on universal
democratic principles.

Appreciate your comments.  I hope you will start seeing people as
people and not get bogged down in these artificial, man-made,
divisions which the Vishal Mangalwadi's of this world are eager to
exploit.  Take care.

Kush Khatri.

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